Zaproszone osoby: 16 Pomógł: 29 razy Posty: 751 Skąd: Kraków
Wysłany: Wto 25 Paź, 2005 12:39 pm Kaczynski won and I'm really ashamed of it
Have you read today's Guardian?
Cytat:
Poland could lose its EU voting rights if its newly elected president continues to oppose gay rights and seeks to introduce the death penalty, the European Commission warned yesterday.
In a shot across the bows of arch-conservative Lech Kaczynski, the commission declared that all member states must abide by EU rules which protect minorities and block the death penalty.
Failure to comply could trigger a special process under the Treaty of Nice which deprives errant member states of their voting rights in ministerial meetings. "We are going to follow the situation very attentively," the principal commission spokesman, Jonathan Todd, said yesterday.
The commission intervened after Mr Kaczynski, the Law and Justice party candidate, was confirmed as the winner of Sunday's second round in the Polish presidential election with 54% of the vote. Donald Tusk, a more moderate conservative from the pro-market Civic Platform party, won 46% of the vote.
The election cleared the way for a strengthened Law and Justice party, headed by the new president's identical twin brother Jaroslaw, to launch formal coalition talks with Civic Platform. The two parties won a conservative majority in parliamentary elections on September 25.
European diplomats will be watching the negotiations carefully after the success of the new president, who made his name as mayor of Warsaw. A strongly conservative Catholic, he refused to allow gay pride marches and supports the death penalty.
Friso Roscam Abbing, the European commission's justice spokesman, warned the new president he must abide by article 6 of the Treaty of Nice, which says that all member states must protect minority rights and not impose the death penalty.
A failure to comply could trigger article 7, which allows the EU to deprive a member state of voting rights. This allows voting rights to be withdrawn if a member state is in "serious breach" of its obligations on human rights.
We have already been a laughing stock in Europe after some derogatory remarks on gay rights by marcinkiewicz and now it's just exacerbating even more with the election of kaczyński. I just can't get over the fact that I live in the country which is still backwoods with so many issues other civilised countries have no problems with whatsoever.
I also worry about their very likely gettting rid of Rzecznik Równego Statusu, which, if they do it, will also be against the EU directives. We can only hope that, with all that in the pipeline, they won't kick us out of the EU !!
Zaproszone osoby: 16 Pomógł: 29 razy Posty: 751 Skąd: Kraków
Wysłany: Wto 25 Paź, 2005 6:36 pm
I don't think they will kick us out. I guess Kaczynski will now do nothing to provoke it (I hope so at least). But I am really worried that there are so many people full of hatred in Poland, people who have been attracted by Kaczynski's political propaganda. He himself couldn't have meant what he was saying. He isn't stupid, you know.
Everyday I'm listening to RMFFM at work. And there they are reading a new book by Clara Veritas. This time is all about Kaczyński's brothers. Somtimes I wonder if it is true ...
Zaproszone osoby: 16 Pomógł: 29 razy Posty: 751 Skąd: Kraków
Wysłany: Wto 25 Paź, 2005 10:34 pm
Anyway, it's really hard to find anything positive about the guy in the English speaking press.
The Independent napisał/a:
Poland was given a blunt warning over its human rights obligations yesterday - after the election of a president who has sought to curb gay rights and campaigned for the restoration of the death penalty.
...
Mr Kaczynski, whose twin brother will also be a key figure in the new government, has caused alarm by raising the issue of reparations for Germany's wartime destruction of Warsaw.
...
Politicians have been alarmed by the statements of the president-elect, and are hoping he and his party will be reined in when in office. Martin Schultz, leader of the socialist group in the European Parliament, said Mr Kaczynski is "on probation", adding: "I hope the president will be a different kind of person to the (one we saw as) candidate."
Chris Davies, leader of the British Liberal Democrat MEPs, said: "People are alert. I hope the Polish president will not seek to challenge some of the basic principles and values of the EU."
...
During the campaign, he called for the return of capital punishment for the worst murders and, as mayor of Warsaw, he sought to ban a gay rights march on security grounds. Germany has been concerned about the nationalist tone of his rhetoric.
The Law And Justice party's website carries an interview with the president-elect in which he argues Poland has "moral grounds to demand compensation" for wartime destruction by the Nazis. He adds: "Polish-German reconciliation is important but it has made some forget what has really happened. Poland's foreign policy did not take advantage of the fact that Germany and Western Europe as a whole have an unclear conscience toward Poland." Meanwhile, the result is seen as a setback for economic liberalism and caused the zloty to dip temporarily.
The pro-business Civil Platform and its presidential candidate Donald Tusk had backed a flat tax and deregulation. By contrast, Law And Justice called for a greater state role in tackling poverty, corruption and unemployment, protection of the welfare state, and made generous campaign promises to farmers and heavy industry workers.
Because of the result of parliamentary elections, the two centre-right parties must form a coalition government. That is likely to mean a compromise on economic reform, one that will exclude a flat tax but mean some reduction in taxation.
A spokesman for the European Commission said: "One of the conditions for starting negotiations with a potential candidate country is that the existing death penalty must be abolished. This is considered not to be in line with the basic values, on which the EU is based." Discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation contravenes a commitment to respect minorities, the rule of law and human rights, he added.
The outcome of Sunday's presidential election in Poland ushers in a change of political direction - and also sends worrying signals about the mood in the most populous and powerful state in "New Europe".
Last month, the conservative Justice and Law party won parliamentary elections when voters, understandably, ejected a government of former Communists discredited by sleaze and a failure to tackle crippling levels of unemployment. Now the leader of the Justice and Law party, Lech Kaczynski, one half of a set of identical twins who became famous in Poland as child film actors in the 1960s, has emerged as the next President.
Kaczynski's promises to stand up to Germany - even though the two countries enjoy good relations - appeared aimed at older voters who remember the war. His promises to keep pensions and social benefits apparently helped him win voters over 60 by a 61-39 percent margin, exit polls for TVN24 showed.
And do you think it is only the leftist media who does not approve of Kaczynski? No, that's not the case. Have a look at some of the conservative ones:
The Telegraph napisał/a:
Mr Kaczynski won widespread support in the country's conservative and Catholic heartland because of his pledges to strengthen the welfare state, crack down on corruption and uphold Christian values.
In May Mr Kaczynski, who is the current mayor of Warsaw, caused outrage among human rights groups when he banned a gay pride march in the capital but later permitted a demonstration by a far-Right organisation. His campaign also received significant support from Andrzej Lepper, the populist politician who came third in the first round of voting for the president a fortnight ago and has strong support in Poland's rural areas.
Mr. Kaczynski, a former member of the Solidarity trade union"""""" movement, which precipitated the collapse, won support from the rural population, the unemployed and the local Catholic clergy. He is a strong believer in family values and maintaining the influence of the Roman Catholic Church.
He has also won support from a part of the younger generation that is afraid that Poland will lose its identity and values in the European union"""""", which Poland joined in May 2004.
Mr. Kaczynski has spoken about making a complete break from the Communist period by declaring a "fourth republic" and a "moral renewal" anchored on Christian values and a tinge of Euroskepticism.
On foreign policy, he favors defending Polish national interests with regard to Russia, even though Poland relies on Russia for its energy. He has also suggested reopening World War II compensation claims against Germany.
''Our friends in Europe are not encouraging us to act hastily. There definitely will be a referendum. Getting rid of one's own currency is a very serious limitation of one's own sovereignty,'' said Kaczynski, who defeated Donald Tusk in a presidential runoff Sunday.
Kaczynski's Law and Justice party, which also won parliamentary elections Sept. 25, has favored moving slowly to adopt the euro, saying the country should only trade in the zloty after voting on it.
The party favors more spending on social welfare programs, which will slow down Poland's progress in meeting the strict limits on deficit spending and government debt required to join.
Kaczynski's promises to stand up to Germany -- even though the two countries enjoy good relations -- appeared aimed at older voters who remember the war. His promises to keep pensions and social benefits apparently helped him win voters over 60 by a 61-39 percent margin, exit polls for TVN24 showed.
...
"We would not like to comment on the issue of the referendum. It is a national matter," said Amelia Torres, the Commission's spokeswoman for monetary affairs.
But privately some officials express concern that it could hamper Poland's economic convergence with countries that are already sharing the euro.
...
Two Commission officials, both of whom asked not to be named, said some political groups in Poland could try to use a referendum to gain political capital by opposing the euro amid lingering euro-scepticism among some Poles.
"(The referendum) is a dangerous road to take," one of the officials said.
The longer Poland waits for the euro, the longer its government would be able to put off tightening its fiscal policy, analysts have said.
Any country wishing the adopt the euro needs to bring its budget deficit to below 3 percent of gross domestic product.
Polish papers acknowledge the unexpected and decisive victory of Lech Kaczynski in the second round of Poland's presidential election. Most believe however that congratulations are due not only Lech, but also to his twin brother and fellow party leader, Jaroslaw.
"The Fourth Republic of the Kaczynskis," says the prominent Warsaw daily Gazeta Wyborcza in a front-page headline.
It refers to the stated aim of the conservative Law and Justice party to introduce a "moral renewal" and a return to Christian values - in effect, a "fourth" republic to replace the current so-called Third Republic.
"The Kaczynski brothers' team must take full responsibility for the next four years," one commentary says.
After all, it adds, they enjoyed the backing of the "extreme right and populists".
"It is therefore up to them not to allow these factions to ruin Poland."
The author believes this was an "undoubted success" of political forces suspicious of the free market and European institutions.
But, she hastens to add, it would be a bad thing if the next Polish government were "dominated by a party that fears modernity, Europe, tolerance and a market economy".
Law and Justice won most votes in September's parliamentary poll.
Wake
Other comment in Gazeta Wyborcza notes that the mood in the opposing camp of was one of mourning.
"Donald Tusk's election reception resembled a wake," the author says.
He adds that as a consequence, many in Mr Tusk's Civic Platform party are now calling for the Platform not to enter into a coalition, but to "form the strongest opposition in parliament".
Another major Warsaw daily, Rzeczpospolita, echoes the theme of a double win for the brothers.
"Twin success," reads one headline, adding that amidst the crowds at the Kaczynski HQ it was the foreign journalists who had the hardest time, as they are "unable to distinguish between Lech and Jaroslaw".
A separate article in the same paper notes that after the results were announced, Lech turned to brother Jaroslaw with the words: "Mr Chairman, mission accomplished!"
Rzeczpospolita carries an exclusive interview with the president-elect, who attributes his victory over Mr Tusk to the fact that he was more "focused".
"Another significant factor was my programme directed at the majority of society," he adds.
And asked whether he now feels more joy or apprehension over the burden of office, he replies: "Anyone in my position would be pleased. But nor am I the sort of person to shirk responsibility."
Aftermath
Other papers wonder what will happen next.
"Big personnel changes in the judiciary and the foreign ministry, a new constitution and the end of the Balcerowicz era is what we can expect from the new president," predicts Zycie Warszawy.
Lech Balcerowicz was the architect of Poland's post-communist "shock therapy", the reforms that paved the way to a market economy and EU membership.
Moreover, the paper believes, the fact that the president comes from the same party that won most seats in parliament means there should be no serious conflict between president and government.
But the weekly Wprost sees things differently.
"Lech Kaczynski won, but he also lost," the paper says, because the formation of a government coalition between the two centre-right parties now seems unlikely.
Unless that is, the Civic Platform of Donald Tusk "wants to commit a spectacular suicide".
True, it adds, Mr Kaczynski's party promised the voters "the earth", and will now be quite keen for the Platform to share responsibility.
"But if the Platform does enter a coalition, it will lose all credibility."
Zaproszone osoby: 16 Pomógł: 29 razy Posty: 751 Skąd: Kraków
Wysłany: Czw 27 Paź, 2005 10:45 pm
Thanks for that.
It's the least negative or the most positive I have read, althouth it's just a review of Polish press in fact.
I don't think this is very enthusiastic, though.
BTW, half the voters in this poll say they approve of the election. Guys. Please tell us why. We are very interested.
Well, I have voted for Kaczyński because of one reason: free education - that is the thing that I really care about.
About Your question: I WAS a bit enthusiastic after the election, but now, when I see all this mess being done in parliament I'm sick of this.
that;s all I have to say
Zaproszone osoby: 1 Pomógł: 65 razy Posty: 861 Skąd: the boonies
Wysłany: Pią 28 Paź, 2005 6:51 pm
Ken Kaniff napisał/a:
How come he lost?
Ask Lepper's electorate.
Before the elections I'd meant to vote for Kaczynski, but I changed my mind and I supported Tusk. I realised that there should be balance. We had an example of SLD and kwasniewski. It hasn't turned out to be beneficial for Poland. I hope it won't happen again, but to be honest there is only a little glimmer of hope What is worse, PiS have broken off the negotiations with PO. I deeply hope PiS and PO will eventually reach an agreement.
Regarding the European Commission comments, if they do not approve of capital punishment, let them come to Poland and reduce the crime rate in Poland. It's easy to say 'It's against the rules'. How are we to cope with crime if capital punisment is against EU rules? I do support the death penalty. I think that is more effective than 25 years in prison.
I'm not going to make comments on gays and lesbians issue because I have similar view to L. Kaczynski which you all know very well.
_________________ Every man dies, but not every man really lives.
Zaproszone osoby: 16 Pomógł: 29 razy Posty: 751 Skąd: Kraków
Wysłany: Pią 28 Paź, 2005 9:13 pm
Well, Majlo, sorry to hear you have changed your mind so quickly. On the other hand, welcome to the Tusk side ;-)
Will you now please try to convince us that capital punishment has anything to do with reducing crime? You know, researches have shown in the 20th century that capital punishment does not really work this way and is useless.
And what's more, with the progress of science more and more innocent people turned out to have been sentenced to death.
Zaproszone osoby: 1 Pomógł: 65 razy Posty: 861 Skąd: the boonies
Wysłany: Pią 28 Paź, 2005 9:37 pm
Anglista napisał/a:
Well, Majlo, sorry to hear you have changed your mind so quickly.
But I think it was a good change. there's no need to be sorry, except the fact that we have an unrepresentative president. It's a great shame
Anglista napisał/a:
researches have shown
Did these researches apply to Poland? I guess it did not.
Nobody knows what kind of impact the c.p. can have on crime rate in Poland, but I'm convinced that it would stop the crime in our country to some extend. And even if not, there are such crimes, such murderers that doesn't deserve anything but electric chair. Don't you think?
If I could create the law in Poland, I wouldn't introduce the c.p. I would build special prisons for "special" criminals, but problem is that these prisons would be against the human rights. but that's topic for another thread.
_________________ Every man dies, but not every man really lives.
Zaproszone osoby: 1 Pomógł: 65 razy Posty: 861 Skąd: the boonies
Wysłany: Pią 28 Paź, 2005 9:56 pm
Anglista napisał/a:
Well, I guess we strongly disagree on death penalty. :-)
Yes, definitely.
But the most important is that we both woud like to live in safe society where citizens abide by the law and where you are not killed because of, for instance, the team that you support, isn't it?
_________________ Every man dies, but not every man really lives.
Majlo, recently there was a case, that two men were sentence for murder and they turned out innocennt after five years. Judge is just a human and can always make mistake. I torned if it goes for death penalty. I know that society pays an anormous money for keeping murderers in prisons for 25 years or more and it is very likely that when he/she goes out he/she will do that again. That is the fact. But on the other hand I belive that a mistake can be made.
Zaproszone osoby: 1 Pomógł: 65 razy Posty: 861 Skąd: the boonies
Wysłany: Sob 29 Paź, 2005 4:54 pm
It's obvious that humans make mistakes. I only want those murderers to be sentenced to death penalty about who we are sure for 100% they had committed the crime, and surely there are such cases in which culprits are known. I know cases when innocent people were hung or executed on an electric chair and that's a GREAT shame Despite this, I'm for death penalty.
BTW, when was the case that you mentioned above? I haven't heard of anything like this recently.
_________________ Every man dies, but not every man really lives.
Zaproszone osoby: 1 Pomógł: 65 razy Posty: 861 Skąd: the boonies
Wysłany: Wto 01 Lis, 2005 3:09 pm
Katowice: The beaten 1,5 year-old girl dies.
The girl who was beaten by her mother's cohabitee died in the hospital.
"The child died at 10:30. A post-mortem is to be performed on Wednesday in order to determine the direct reason of demise" - the spokesman for Sosnowiec police, Grzegorz Wierzbicki, said.
Marcin, let me just ask you. How would you punish this guy?
_________________ Every man dies, but not every man really lives.
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What is worse, PiS have broken off the negotiations with PO. I deeply hope PiS and PO will eventually reach an agreement.
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